Lets talk about carbines.
 

I have owned a Keltec sub 2000 in 9mm. I am in the market to buy another carbine that shoots 9mm or .45 and was wondering what you guys think?

I believe the keltec was very accurate, affordable, and the fact that it was so lightweight and could be folded to fit in a pack was a plus. It also took glock mags and was easy to find large capacity mags.

Im looking for suggestions, range reports, prices, and hopefully pictures of carbines modified or not, that you have enjoyed using and find to be a irreplaceable part of your arsenal.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Berretta CX4 Storm... comes in 3 flavors 9mm, .40, .45 nuff said!
http://www.ihuntsheep.com/images/gun...-cx4-storm.jpg

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

I always wanted a M1 carbine like my Dad carried in WWII. They used to be cheap, but not now. The 30 cal round was considered anemic compared to a 30-06 and I guess it was but it pushed a 110 gr bullet to right at 2,000 fps making it major league for pistol rounds.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Here is a new Auto-Ordnance M1, walnut stock and parkerized $679
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct552.aspx

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

I know every one poo poo's them but, I was given 2 highpoint carbines in 9mm and .40 when a good friend closed his gun store. I thought they were one of the goofiest looking things I had ever seen. I took them out back to the range one day with about 500 rounds of ammo with every intention of breaking them if I could. I put about 400 rounds through the .40 and 500 through the 9mm with no problems what so ever. I was amazed at the accuracy. I had 3 mags for the 9mm and ripped through rounds til it was smoking. Not even a hiccup. At 80 Yards I could make 2-3" groups boringly easily. It would not be my first choice if had to get in a fight, but I could fight well with it if I had to.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

An M1 Carbine is nice, I love mine and shoot it a good bit. But for a 9mm why not go whole hog and get a Suomi or PPSh 41? The 71 round drums are cheap, the guns shoot very nicely and are accurate. Plus they are some of the most unusual carbines around...you make all kinds of new friends at the range...lol. I have both of these and they are a riot to shoot. The other one I am fond of if you can find one is the MPA-71. It is a Frankengun, made from a FN/FAL lower with a Cobra upper, AR and FN furniture, and uses Suomi mags but it is dead reliable and a blast to shoot.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...im/minipal.jpg

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Ruger PC9, PC40
Marlin Camp 9, Camp 45
Lever Action 38/357, 44/44Mag, 45Colt

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Everytime I see a Highpoint....I think of the rifles in Planet of the Apes.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

The Beretta Storm is a beautiful gun and a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. Can't beat the Keltec 2000 as far as affordability and being able to take Glock mags, though.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Wow you guys have me seriously considering the beretta storm, im gonna go check it out at the store, is a very attractive firearm.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Tom, CMP still has carbines for under 500 bucks.

I love 'em. Heck, everyone who's come over and shot loved it after running a mag through it. The M1 carbine is the only thing that will actually bring a smile to my wife's face while she's firing it.

Mags are cheap, the USGI ones are dead on reliable, they're as accurate as any of the new plastic carbines, and the 30 carbine round beats any pistol caliber up to a 357 hands down.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Rather than make a recommendation, I will share my thought process and where it took me.

Because I could foresee problems with ammo availability AND decided I would have to reload eventually, I made the decision to limit all my weapon buying (non-shotgun) to 9mm, .45 ACP, 5.56/223, and 7.62X51/308 Win (yes i know there is a slight difference between 7.62 NATO and 308 Win and I don't care).

Along with this decision, I made the decision to maximize magazine compatibility i.e. I elected NOT to buy an FN (which I really like) because I was already entrenched in the M14/M1A camp and well equipped to support these rifles. I have .45's and 9mm auto pistols. 1911's and Glocks. The Glock mags are all interchangeable except you can't put the shorter mags in the larger guns but the G17 mags will all feed nicely in the G19 and G26....

I think it's important to properly label a weapon, understand what it is and what it does, etc. in order to select one. A carbine is actually a short rifle, shooting a rifle cartridge. The .30 Carbine was an attempt to more or less make a rifle that shoots basically a long half pistol half rifle round. It actually did very well and everyone I know who has actually used it in combat AND used an M16 (i.e. Vietnam Vets) unanimously say they'd rather shoot a guy with the .30 Carbine because bad guys fall down and die better/faster.

Of course it seemed anemic compared to the 7.62 X 65 aka 30 06! It was made to replace the sidearm worn by officers and noncoms.

Even so, it does not fit in my "program." The military doesn't make or use the ammo anymore so it stands to become more and more difficult to obtain and unless you buy one of the pistols made to shoot this ammo, it's a one race pony.

Pistolwise I was first and foremost a 1911 pistol guy and have several. As for the Glocks, yes I know they don't have ideal paper punching triggers. Neither to DA revolvers. I don't propose to punch paper at 50 meters. I will defend myself. There are those who will argue the SA or the H&K's are better but I'm not interested in the debate. The Glock works for me and shoots/points well and for reliability, it is unbeaten. It's simple with few moving parts and had no lawyers on the design team.

Now, the Keltec and the Beretta are not actually "carbines" but rather what would be rightly called a "submachinegun" were they fully automatic. A submachinegun is a machine gun shooting pistol ammo. I'm not quite sure what the correct term for a semi auto in this configuration is (semisubgun?), but I think they are good short and almost medium range defense weapons. Certainly with comparable accuracy if not stopping power to the 7.62 AK's and probably as good as the 5.54 AK's on both counts.

I applied my magazine interchangeability rule to the "semisubgun" and bought, as Ruprick recommended, a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45 ACP. It shoots nicely and uses ordinary 1911 Magazines, a monument to the common sense of Marlin and in stark contrast to the greedines of Bill Ruger, who could have easily made the Mini-14 compatible with M16 magazines. This is the killer flaw in that rifle and I would own several if I could use my AR-15 magazines in it.

(BTW, I got rid of my AR and got a Robinson XCR which I consider to be what the M16 should have been in the first place).

As for the 9mm, I never tested one but didn't like the feel of the Keltec, although it can be made compatible with Glock magazines. I achieved both a level of parts interchangeability as well as magazine compatibility with a MechTech Systems 9mm upper on a Glock 17 Lower. 33 Round Glock 18 magazines are readily available so I can go out with a short gun and a long gun using the same magazines and have lots of ammo in the magazine.

Although I use custom handloads on the more accurate, long range 308 rifles, my non-shotgun, non-rimfire ammo needs are simple: 9mm Ball, .45 ACP Ball, 5.56.223 Ball, and 7.62/308 Win Ball. My opinion is, and I know I'll get lots of flack for saying this, that arguing bullet type/load/etc. during a firefight is splitting hairs that you cannot even see when someone is shooting at you. If a guy is hyped up on drugs, you could shoot him with a .50 BMG and he won't stop 'til he bleeds out. If he's just a pseudo tough guy, you could shoot him in the fleshy part of the thigh with a .22 short and he'll go crying home to Mommy or lie there screaming bloody murder for an ambulance. Most everyone is in between somewhere and you cannot predict human stress reaction with ballistic jelly.

I keep it simple. Ball, ball, and more ball. It's more reliable than other types. Four ammo sizes that are in general and popular use. Maximum ammo and magazine interchangeability.

K - I - S- S

Furthermore, since my weapons use ammo currently in use by the military, I am well prepared take my place next to those already defending our nation, should that become necessary.

JMHO. Flame somebody else if you want an argument. I am just offering to share my decision making process. I'm not trying to insult anyone's pet pistol or favorite rifle; just sharing what I have done.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

SkyV,

Great advice. This is my basic approach as well. I have a pile of Glocks - and they are strictly fighting pistols...not target pistols...and high precision target pistol shooting is my core range activity. The Glocks are what they are....

I feel the exact same way about the Mini-14 and in fact wrote a letter to Ruger telling them they should have a Mini-15.....just design to use AR-15/M-16 mags....I do not and will not have a Mini-14 for this reason.

Since you have the Glocks - you should have a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 in glock mag. They are not fantastic - but they are effective and functional. I like the book-bag-ability. Kel-Tec does have AR-15 mag folding rifles as well.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Ruprick,

Thanks.

I think Ruger must have received thousands of those letters but ignored them. They must have figured they'd make more money on the magazines but I think it will cost the Mini-14 a place among the great rifles.

It likely would have been adopted by some militaries around the world, if it's magazines were compatible.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Keltec. I looked at them and I'm sure they're fine, they just didn't resonate with me. I've had my 9mm "Semisubgun" needs met by the MechTech and besides, I need to apply the resources to other areas (besides the reflixive acquition of fine pieces of -shooting- art)....

:-)

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

:dito: on the MecTech, I have one in 45acp and love is in the air.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

If you are going to carry a shoulder fired weapon make sure you go the way of a rifle round. Why would anyone carry a weapon that has the disadvantages of a handgun and rifle. You can at least capitalize on power or portability but not both.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

I thought you were gonna talk about carbines, but this whole thread is about 'long pistols'.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

I have a ton of fun with my...

carbine Calico M-900 9mm
long pistol Calico M-950 9mm

nothing like a 100rnd clip to make your day

http://calicolightweaponsystems.com/home/

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

What about a carbine with runs on the board?


http://necropimp.home.insightbb.com/...m1_carbine.jpg



I have a serious hard on for one of these bad boys.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

I honestly don't understand the desire to use a "rifle" ("carbine") that fires pistol rounds.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

OK, let's look at one example. You go to Classic Arms and you buy a new Sterling 9mm for $480. Comes with two mags so you buy 2-4 more. Doesn't need a scope or vertical pistol grips and anything else so that's your final cost. So affordability in both the rifle and the ammo.

You hand the Sterling to your wife or your daughter and find that in very short order they can fire the whole magazine into a spot the size of your fist at 25 yards. No complaining about heavy recoil or loud noises. And they don't have to have much training in fast mag changes since the excitement will likely be over before they finish off the first 32 round mag. So that's low recoil and noise and high capacity.

IMO, the only real flaw to something like the Sterling "rifle" is the 16" barrel. So you go the SBR route and get the barrel cut back. Then you have a weapon with a folding stock that can be put in something the size of a briefcase. Take it out, unfold the stock, slap in a 32 round mag and you are ready to go. Portability baby!

And you take 9mm and put it in something with a 10"+ barrel and you can see some .357 SIG velocities. Something like the Winchester Ranger +P+ loves getting some extra barrel to get going faster. Ought to go through any and all car sheet metal and most vests.

Gregg

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

1. Low recoil
2. Low muzzle flash
3. Generally smaller and lighter
4. Easier to suppress
5. Often uses cheaper ammo
6. Quieter even unsuppressed
7. In some cases can use the same magazines as your primary handgun

Pistol caliber carbines are just another tool in the toolbox, no they are not for every job but they do some jobs better than a rifle cartridge does. This is why they are used worldwide by military, police, anti-terrorist, and others. I put a can on my MPA 71 and with subsonic ammo the action makes as much noise as the round firing does. And as stated the extra velocity picked up in the longer barrels does add to penetration. My PPSh 41 shoots a 85 grain bullet at close to 2000 fps. That is not up to rifle velocities but it will zip through many materials that would stop a handgun round cold and do so in a small, light firearm that holds 71 rounds in the magazine.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Hi Point 9mm here, it simplifies my ammo plus much easier to find than the other calibers, I live near a city and most of the problems I will have will be up close and personel. Proably less than 100 ft. If I lived in the country then I would go for the reach but so far the Hi point 9mm eats everything I put in it. HP, Ball and all makes plus I am not worried about over penetration.

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Lest we forget...
And in answer to those complaining about pistol caliber carbines...

The Venerable Moisin-Nagant 1891/59:
http://necropimp.home.insightbb.com/...evsk_91-59.jpg

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

All GREAT!

Until you come up against anybody armed with a RIFLE....

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

A Sterling would work just fine against somebody with a rifle. Whether it was an AK an AR or an FAL. Just like a handgun would work just fine against somebody armed with a rifle. As a civilian, I'm not planning to start trying to engage bad guys at 300 meters. The US Army trained me to do that and I have various rifles for such an event. But a civilian is nearly always going to be engaging well inside of 100 yards. The only advantage something like an FAL has within 100 yards over a Sterling is hard penetration. And sure, that can be significant in some situations. But if there are three guys standing guard with a FAL and I sneak up inside of 25 yards and shoot all three of them before they can get the FAL's off their slings, the Sterling was still the right weapon for the mission!

A rifle is a fine thing and I'm proud of my skills with one. But self defense, home protection and/or property protection is a close range thing. I'm not going to arm my family from top to bottom with rifles that look like they would be appropriate for fighting the Communist Chinese in Korea. I want them to look more prepared for the house and street fighting in Iraq!

Gregg

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Why would that matter? Does the rifle caliber make him win automatically? If I have a sub caliber carbine and see someone with a rifle I should just give up?

I have shot my subcaliber rifles at 200 yards and have no problem hitting 12 inch round targets at that range. Don't know what the group size was, these were steel plates...just had to knock them over. If I can do that I can hit a torso at that range. I don't think the bullets will just bounce off the BG...lol

Re: Lets talk about carbines.
 

Two of my favorite carbines...

http://www.mouseguns.com/sub2000/long.jpg
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Images/photo_1894C.jpg